Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Tara Lee and welcome to Star Being, your cosmic journey to self discovery, higher consciousness and spiritual exploration. This podcast serves as a guiding light illuminating the path to wisdom, healing and conscious living. Let Star Being ignite your inner light as we transcend limitations and tap into the universal consciousness that unites and empowers all of us.
Welcome to episode 23, the Aligned Path. Leaving the 9 to 5 and leading with purpose with Estelle Pavoli. Estelle is a leadership mentor, purpose coach and host of the Aligned Path podcast. Estelle helps ambitious, multi passionate women break free from conventional careers, amplify their gifts and create success on their terms. We dive into the leap from nine to five to purpose driven leadership, navigating identity shifts, financial fears and the glass ceiling in corporate spaces. Estelle shares how to build true security from within, redefine success beyond outdated systems and step into whole woman success where ambition, purpose and personal power alignment. It was such a joy to finally meet Estelle in person and we got to record this in Sydney together.
I think there's going to be a lot of takeaways if you're being in the corporate career. If you're navigating, moving out. I think there is a lot of wisdom here and I know it's something that I would have really liked when I was navigating moving from corporate to entrepreneurship. So I hope you enjoy and if you have been enjoying starving content, please leave a rating and a review. This really helps me and I'd also love to know if you like these more business focused content. I really want to make this a whole breadth of topics so I'm interested to know what you are enjoying the most. Welcome to the podcast Estelle. I'm so excited to have you on starbing and to meet you in real life five minutes ago. I feel like I already know you so well so I'm excited for this conversation.
[00:02:28] Speaker B: I'm so excited for this conversation and also I feel like I know you because you look exactly like Angelina Jolie.
When I saw you I was like I've seen her before. It's on the big screen.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: Bless you.
I was just saying to Estelle that I just had a lunch and we were talking about this exact topic that I want to speak to you about. I feel that your work is incredibly important right now and yeah, so I want to get into. First of all, you are helping women transition out of their 9 to 5 job and I would really love to know what has inspired you to work with women to transition. Where is that come from? And yeah, tell me about that.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it's such an important question. It definitely came from my own journey. So for me, I started off when I was really young. The only kind of definition of success around me for a female was a woman that had climbed the corporate ladder. I wasn't surrounded by kind of female entrepreneurs, I was surrounded by a lot of women, especially my mom, who did really well in the corporate world and was considered quite successful. And so being really young and looking up to my mum, that was the only kind of version I had of success and, you know, wealth or just a woman who is kind of living life on our own terms because she was really dependent. And so I wrapped up my whole idea of success based on that model and based on what I saw around me. And if you think about even like, you know, 20, 30 years ago, people weren't really talking about entrepreneurship for females. Like was very much a male dominated space. And it was like, if you think about the previous generation, women were considered powerful who were working like the 9 to 5. It's like, wow, you know, the goal is to be the CEO. The goal is to be in the, you know, the C suite. And so that was kind of my, I guess a lot of my conditioning.
And so I kind of entered the corporate world and I entered the corporate world because I remember the exact point. I actually wanted to be a psychologist, but I kind of pivoted from that space and I thought, what do I love? I love, I love people and I love business. What are those two? What's the marriage of those two? And I thought human resources, which if you work in human resources, it's so far from that. But that was my idea of it. I thought, okay, these are my two passions, let's put them together. And I went down kind of the corporate route and I completely forgot about this part of me when I was young, which was really, I want to say quite spiritual. I grew up with Esther Hicks and people coming over doing coffee cup readings and it was a very kind of open minded space that my mum created in our home. And I just lost that whole part of me going into corporate. I feel like I embodied this kind of masculine structure. And I was quite ambitious and kind of kicked off in that corporate space and I started to do things that were quite unconventional then. Like if I think about it, the norm was to go into the corporate space and to stay in a job at least for like five years, especially when you're starting off to get grounded, to get, build up those skills and then potentially go elsewhere. And I was like flip flopping around. I had so many different contracts and I loved that. And that was really an opportunity for me to, I want to say, like flex my almost like entrepreneurship skills. Like flex my ability to like meet new people, problem solve, understand new interest industries, like really kind of pivot. And I feel like that set me apart from other people that just stayed in the one job for a long time. But then that got to a point where I realized I was actually trying to escape. And you know, I thought that one project would be fulfilling and then another project would be fulfilling. And then I realized that actually none of that was actually fulfilling me. Something, something was off. And it wasn't until I kind of noticed myself being in this space where I was binge eating, binge drinking, like very busy, like if you met me, if he's so busy, so many things to do. Like, and I remember like on a Sunday afternoon in particular, after many Sundays, I started to get that feeling like around 3pm and I was just like crap, like Monday's tomorrow. And it felt sad. I felt so sad. And I remember waking up in the morning and just being on a Monday and just feeling so like numb and I didn't recognize myself because naturally I'm someone who's quite passionate and enthusiastic and I just feel like I lost myself. And whilst it might seem on the outside like maybe it was my lifestyle, but it wasn't my lifestyle was the thing that I was trying to distract what was causing me the pain in my lifestyle, if that makes sense.
And then I went on this journey of self discovery. I definitely had my Saturn return. It was strong and oh my God, I remember it so vividly. And I went on this journey of self discovery. And at that time, like if I take it back, that was, I want to say like eight years ago. And if you think about how different times are now, like eight years ago, people weren't talking about purpose, people weren't talking about meaning at work. Like that was still very, I want to say almost like reserved for like eastern philosophy. Like people weren't talking about purpose, just day to day at work. And I remember like asking one of the directors, the CEO and I started asking him like, what's his purpose and what's his calling? And he, and he actually it was a really good conversation but he was the only person that I felt like had something to contribute to that conversation. Everyone was like, what do you mean Estelle? Like you've got a great job, you make great money, like just, you know, you've got a great life, like you know, just like be happy with that. And that was like my internal dialogue until I realized that wasn't going away. And when I started going on this like self discovery kind of journey of just trying to figure out what I love to do and I stumbled across this life coaching course and then, and especially in Australia, like people weren't talking about life coaching. It was like odd thing. And I remember signing up for this course and I was like, like it was like a full body, like I have to sign up for this course, I have to do it. My husband, my, he was my fiancee at the time, but he was like, what do you mean? Like we're trying to buy a house. Like you can't just like $5,000, I'm like going to figure it out, I need to do this. And he supported me because he's amazing and always has.
But I, that was like a huge step. And from that point onwards I started growing my business on the side. And I guess what the important message I want to take from that is like that feeling of misalignment, that feeling like this is in my soul, not right for me. And I can only see the type of person I'm going to be five, ten years from now if I continue going on this track of what's considered success on paper was such a defining moment for me because I didn't, I don't want other women to feel like that is the only way. And I, I think it's also important to preface to say not everyone should quit their 9 to 5. Not everyone should leave the corporate world. Absolutely not. But if you've got that feeling in you, like in your gut, in your body, like you know something else, bigger, more fulfilling, deeper, more purposeful is available for you and the corporate world is draining your life. That is a message that you have to pay attention to.
[00:09:57] Speaker A: Yes. And so that moment for you when you decided to fully grow out of corporate, was there one moment or was it just a building up you like, what would you have liked to have told yourself back then in that moment or even a couple of years ago that would have helped you transition more gracefully?
[00:10:25] Speaker B: Yeah, there was definitely a defining moment. So I feel like I thought I had a few of them, but really it was the one. And that was when I went back to maternity leave after my second child. So my daughter, I had two kids quite close together and my daughter was one. And so I went back to maternity, went back to corporate and at the time it was January, January 2024. And I was feeling quite enthusiastic about it, even though it was mixed, mixed emotions, but quite enthusiastic about having some sort of structure back in my life. And I thought, we get to have like adult conversations and structure. It's gonna be good. And I was starting part time and I was like quite optimistic about it. And it would have been like, I want to say, not even four weeks, not even a month. And that feeling in my stomach of being like, okay, well now the fun of dressing up and getting out of the house and traveling to the city and engaging with humans has sunked in.
That's not gonna get me through this. Like, this is. That was the thing that. Yeah. And so it was like that big moment of being like, I, if I'm gonna be away from my kids, it has to be doing something of meaning. And I don't want to feel like I'm just wasting time and just cashing in for a paycheck like that, that, that kind of full body response for me. I was just like, I can't do that in the long term. And I think that was the big push for me. And so I just said to myself, and this is what a message that I want to say to people who are feeling that, feeling frustrated or perhaps feeling angst about quitting is that for me, I didn't put any real time pressure. I remember the beginning of the year, January, and I said, you know what? Like, this is the year I'm going to quit. This is the year that's going to happen to me and happen for me. And I plugged out a random date. It was like September. And I was like, I think it's going to happen in September. And I. And I did not put such pressure around it. And that's a really important piece. I didn't put this like, pressure that I have to do this. And then if I don't do it by September, I failed. And I haven't ticked off my big goal. And I'm all these things. I was just like, it's going to happen in September, but until that point, I am going to not only show up like my business is my full time gig, but I'm going to start to embody the person that I think I'm going to be when I quit my job. So it was very much for me, this energy of like, how can I stop putting quitting on the pedestal and actually start to embody that version right now? And not just like the version, but like the power of that person, the freedom, the success, the independence. How can I start to infuse that in my energy now. And that was a really important piece. And there's a few others, and we can go into more detail, but I think those are the main things is also taking away the pressure of quitting and actually leading into the pleasure and the pleasure of your service. And for me, that was like, I want to be so freaking grateful of the clients I get to serve. Like, what a gift is that what a gift is supposed to me thinking, okay, I need to make X amount of money in order to quit. And whilst all those things are logical and you need to think those through. But for me, it was very much like, I want to just like, lean into the magic of what I get to do and from that place. That's what gave me, I want to say, like, the cushion and the opportunity to actually leave. But when I decided to leave, it was very thought through.
It was not like, I'm waking up in the morning quitting. It was very thought through. It was very considered.
I had a lot of conversations with my partner, with my husband, and he was very, very supportive. And I also want to say, because I think people don't talk about this, which is. Which is why it annoyed me, because I never heard people's journey also had cash in the bank. Like, I was. I couldn't see myself. Like, I have two kids and a mortgage, and someone would say, well, you're crazy for quitting. Like, it's the economic crisis and all these other things. But when I went to the organic store the other day and I saw the bill and I'm like, it would be crazy for me not to quit. It'd be crazy for me not to quit considering, like, inflation and how expensive things is. Things are if you expect to get a salary increase that's in line with inflation, right? So for me, I was like, it's crazy for me not to quit. But also I had the support mechanisms in place for me to do that. And I'd been working on that for some time. And what I will say is, to my younger self and to anyone listening is that everyone's journey is different. And it's so important that you don't compare it and instead you lean into the possibility. But also the magic of you being of service and working on your craft.
[00:15:09] Speaker A: I think that is so important, not putting that pressure on yourself, but also energetically putting that out there and then starting to build, I think, the confidence. But also I feel it's a different mindset shift, and it's also an identity shift. And you brought up that really important piece around time. And I feel for anyone that has had a side business or has worked just for themselves, you know that you're in full control of your time and you know how quickly you can get things done. I found when I was working on the side and also in corporate, I would come back into corporate and I would see how slow things were done and how people are just literally wasting time. And that was the biggest motivation for me because I was like, I could do this in two hours and then I could be done and then I could be onto the next thing. But in this structure, in this system, it isn't set up to do really deep work, quality work, or quick work. It's designed to just fill in the hours.
And so I feel that there is that huge mindset shift, especially when you then go out and you're in your business on your own and you've got so many more hours.
It's just, how have you really navigated that even identity shift? Like, what did it look like for you? Like, what was the mindset shifts and what you help with your clients?
[00:16:53] Speaker B: Such a powerful point and really, really important, especially if you've been in the corporate world for a long time, because you are conditioned to operate like hour by hour and what you do at a certain time and the output it delivers. And then if you've someone who can master and achieve what someone else will do in eight hours, in two hours, that's not considered a value add. That's considered okay, just give that person more work to fill those hours. And so for me, one of the big things, and it's still a journey. And I want to be really honest in saying that it's still a journey because it's been years, like I was in the corporate 15 years, but it's definitely been my relationship with time. And so one of the things that I've shifted is my mindset around productivity and time. So, for example, when you're an employee, it's mainly like, you work 9 to 5, and those are the hours in which you deliver. And like you said, you can actually deliver work in a short period of time. So me juggling, for example, motherhood, having a husband, running a household, and having my own business, there have been times often where I can't sit nine to five and work on my business. So for me, a lot of the work was the inner work around the guilt and the shame. And why am I not sitting at my desk for that amount of time? Aren't I taking my Business seriously, isn't this what I wanted? And how did I do it before? How, you know, how did I get dinner organized and, and the washing done and you know, I should just be doing that, you know, at 9 o'clock at night. All of those things was a huge, was a huge piece. So it's less about the mindset work, but more around like the shadow work around that. Because I feel like that was where a lot was illuminated for me around productivity, what it means to feel worthy, what it means to be a productive person in society, contributing, being busy.
So all of that is something that I work on with my clients because I feel like that's, that is their main thing, that, that piece around being super productive and that identity of being an ambitious person. And that means burnt out, that means exhausted, that means being a superwoman.
So it just so happened that because I prioritize other things in my life and just because I value my business doesn't mean I value other things less. It's forced me to change that relationship.
But what I'll say to anyone is that you can do like, if you give yourself 30 minutes to do a task that normally takes you three hours, I guarantee you the quality of the work that you'll provide in those 30 minutes. And the way that you challenge yourself and the way that you push yourself to do it in that short period of time will create, will give you such an edge and such a level of confidence and such a level of empowerment that forcing yourself to sit at a desk for that certain amount of time won't give you, let alone the creativity like this is that we're running a business. It's not just like, where do the best ideas come at your desk? Never. They come out in nature, they come in the shower. They come when you're like, you know, you're sitting there, like just staring out into the, you know, into the sky, having a cup of tea. Those are when the best ideas land. And I think it's about, we need to actually create the space for innovation and creativity. If we're running a business and we have to be visionary, we have to be creative. And so we have to give ourselves space to do that. And so forcing yourself to be at a desk to operating those certain hours is not going to work in your favor. But one other thing that I will say is that the employee mindset is very much about it is not an entrepreneurial, visionary type of energy.
And that energy requires someone that takes risks.
And when you're in an employee employer construct like you don't take the risk. Like, the risk is on the employer, your boss. So, so there's a whole level of like self trust and this ability to back yourself because you're going to wear, you know, you're going to wear the, the highs or the lows of that decision.
[00:21:06] Speaker A: Yes. And this is what I really struggled with when I was straddling both corporate and my own work. Because in your, when you're in your business, you are the sole decision maker of what happens. And I started bringing some of that energy into the corporate environment.
And you know, these are, you know, I'm surrounded predominantly by all men and it was very aggressive to them that I had an opinion and that I was becoming more confident in. You know, as you get older, you get more experience, you get, you know, you're learning more.
And I could see now looking back why that was so threatening because I had been empowered by my, my own business and making those decisions. But in that employee environment, having a, or certainly for me, having a opinion that went against what was the status quo or what the, the management were after, that wasn't seen as an asset, which I couldn't understand because I'm like, in that entrepreneurial space, you want someone to challenge you, you want to be like, can you do this differently? Or how about we do X, Y and Z? Like that is really. And these are the people that are surrounding myself with. And then going back into that corporate environment and you're being told what to do, it just fe like that creativity and that spark. And I can understand how people with that entrepreneurial spirit just like need to.
[00:22:41] Speaker B: Oh yeah, you know, break free 100%. I think it's so frustrating. I remember that feeling as well. And I've heard this from my clients where they get frustrated. They're just like. And I think that happens for a reason because I think that that's like a, it's like a becoming. Right? And I feel like there is a process where you're starting to like, shed your layers. You're peeling back the layers and you're, you're bring your full self, your core self to the workplace and that doesn't fit in. Like, you don't fit into that construct anymore. And so that's supposed to happen, I believe, because then it starts to give you that fire and that permission and that power to be like, this is. These aren't my people. I'm not going to be able to have my voice heard. I'm not going to be able to have, contribute to change or have Big ideas or make an impact and influence here. You can absolutely do that in a corporate construct. It's just a lot of the time that opportunities not available to you. And that's what I was finding. That's what I found a lot of my clients feel. And that frustration, I always say, let that fuel you, because pain can be a very powerful motivator. And you know, that can. Whether that's helping you make that decision to leave or just providing you with a lot of clarity. Because I feel like a lot of the time people who have a side business, they're not like fully in it. That's like, stop, start energy. And like, yeah, this is cute. I love it. Oh, no, it's too hot. Too much hard work. Can I do this? No, I can't do this. I'm gonna go for it. No, I can't. It's like that confusing stop start energy, which is exhausting. But then when you've got this environment where you're just like, it's so clear that it's incongruent with who you're becoming, it makes it much easier to really go all in on your business and. And your own version of success in terms of the career that you're building.
[00:24:21] Speaker A: Yes. And when it comes to that, that security that you touch on, that safety, I had always thought, and I think this is a. I don't know if we can say a corporate myth, but that the safest thing that you can do is be in that corporate career. And this was always modeled to me as well. So be in that corporate career. Climb the ladder. Do you know your years of getting to that management, senior management level? And then that's. That's the ultimate. That's the security and getting that consistent income finance. And then now leaving my corporate job, I realized that the true safety has actually been in myself investing in myself.
And all the. All these years that I had spent within that corporate environment.
Yes, I like, I learned things, but it's really about setting myself up for that safety and security. It's so much more so than what the corporate job, like, provided me. And I was like, no one told me that that's through, like, lived experience. So I wish, like, having someone like you to, like, be that expander to be like the best or one of the safest things is investing in yourself and going for it, creating your own wealth, creating something that isn't in flux with, you know, the financial markets or industries or AI or, you know, things that. Or restructures like really creating safety on Your own is something that I think gets left off, like how much security I feel now rather than that. That corporate environment.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: Yeah, 100. And I'm, I'm so glad that you mentioned that. But I also think it's a journey to that place because I feel like even if some people hear that, they're not ready to embody that because the fear of, okay, but it's on me. And I've got to rise to that. Whether. If you're in a corporate construct, okay, yeah, you're performing the role, but like I said before, you're not taking the risk. You still know that you're going to get a paycheck every week, whether you kind of put in the, the work or you don't eventually get impacted. But it's different, that level of like personal responsibility. And I think that's also where, you know, if I'm going to be honest, I think people are scared of that because it, it's that lack of trust within themselves and their abilities. Which is why what you said is even more important. Because when you start investing in yourself, if and if you don't believe at the beginning that you have the skills, the ability, the confidence, all of that, but you investing in yourself, that's what builds that conf. That's what builds that self trust. And you don't just become that person. Some people are, but you don't just have to be that person. You can grow into that person through the investment of yourself and your skills. You know, I often find that it's easier. Not easier, but because I didn't have. Because I didn't stay at a job for a very long period of time. I was leaving like every two years. A lot of the personal development I invested in myself. Only a couple of corporate roles did they invest in me because I kind of wasn't there long enough. And I didn't really put up my hand for a lot of those things because I was just doing it myself. And that in itself was so powerful because I was starting to treat myself like my own business. I remember people would say, just like, why don't you try and do this course? Because then I know they'll fund this course. I'm like, well, I don't want to do that course. I want to do this course. And so it's a very different energy where you're not just doing it for the purpose of the business and what the business wants you to do, but in terms of what you want to do and what you think will contribute to your toolkit it. But I think that is such a powerful, I want to say, like, expander for people as well, what you said, because you can arrive to that point on that journey as opposed to just feeling, you know, like you're worthy of those investments at the beginning. Because it is, it is hard, especially when no one's really talking about it in corporate.
[00:28:38] Speaker A: Yes. And when it comes to that financial safety and security that is obviously holding a lot of people back from taking that leap, what is your mindset shift that you had to do and what you help your clients work through? Do you feel like that is one of the things that is holding them back the most is having that trust that they can do, do the same as their corporate renumeration?
[00:29:12] Speaker B: Yes, definitely. And a few things that I think really help people with getting grounded in this idea that firstly, recognizing that your corporate job, like, you're always replaceable. I worked in HR 15 years. I'll tell you, anyone is replaceable. And the fact that you think that, okay, it's cushy, okay, cool, like, I'm secure, I'm good, it's just not the truth. So that's what I'll say, firstly. And secondly, is that what I find really powerful is women recognizing and seeing evidence of other women achieving what they want to achieve. Right. So whether you're in a community, whether you're in programs, courses, you're following people that are an expander for you on what's possible. Even like, I love when women share, like, their monetary wins. I absolutely love it. Because you're showing other women what's possible for them. You're not necessarily being like, arrogant or boastful. It's just like, hey, if I can do this, so can you. And that's where you start to realize, okay, cool, if that's, that's the energy, if she can do it, why can't I?
But from a practical lens, I think building a business on the side is a really powerful thing. As opposed to just jumping ship without any income or a plan, but doing it on the side, starting to build your client base. Start. You starting to see examples of, okay, cool, money's coming in. Now I get to. I'm starting to treat my side business like my real business. And that's what I started to do. I started to like, like one of the strategies. I would almost like, put away my corporate income, but I would start to use my income that I would get from my business when I had what I was doing on the side as my, like, as what I would pay Bills with as what I would, you know, go shopping with, go food shopping and all those types of things. Because it started to be real, like it wasn't just something I got on the side. And that started to change the energy and my relationship with it, first and foremost. But also I think recognizing that it's, it's very much about. I want to say it's deeper than money mindset work, but it's very much around the shadows and the permission that you have to see things in a different way. Where all money is a citizen exchange. And the way that we've seen it is that it's come through us from an employer, whether now it gets to come from so many different, multiple, multiple options, multiple services. And it's purely an exchange of our energy, of our work and of our contribution. And when we start to see evidence of it and when we start to see other people doing what we want to do, it starts to ground for us and it starts to become a possibility. And when it becomes a possibility, it opens up the pathways for those opportunities. But if we don't even see that as a possibility, which is what so many people don't allow themselves to do, of course they can't get grounded in the reality of that and they can't get secure in that option.
[00:32:02] Speaker A: It's so true. And I think that is one of the most mind bends that you need to do is around that that certain amount of hours doesn't equate that financial gain.
And that is something that I really had to work through because it continuously gets modeled that way to like stay stuck into the matrix. Like this is how many hours you've got to do. And knowing that the biggest shift for me recently has been and I love that this will tie in because your Instagram handle is the aligned path. Because when we are in alignment with our purpose, when we're in alignment with our truth, that energetic shift, like even though I believe in magic, I don't know how this works. That is the magnetizing and that is when it doesn't matter about how many hours you've worked. It's the, it's the outcome. And that's something so hard to have faith in when you can't see it. So that's why that building your confidence, like you said, is so important. Because you have to believe. It's like, you know, jumping before the net is going to appear. So it's like you can understand why you have to build that confidence.
[00:33:27] Speaker B: 100 and I even like to sometimes look at examples outside of like business and money and career even, like, if you were to put out into the universe that you wanted a certain type of partner, right, you didn't have the evidence of that before, that there was going to be a person that had these types of qualities that would make you feel this way and through meeting that person would change the trajectory of your life. You may have not had evidence of that based on the previous partners that you've been with. So it's like we've. We have to do this all the time. You know, we have to hold the belief, we have to hold the possibility of something. We've just been so constructed when it comes to like career and business that it just has to be this one way, whether we have to have the faith for everything else we want to create. You know, before we see that house, we've got to believe that that house is available to us. You know, that family, that body, that health, whatever it is.
[00:34:18] Speaker A: I also wanted to bring up with you this. And I never would have thought this existed, but this is part of my lived experience. As I got older, I saw this more is the glass ceiling for women.
I didn't think this was a thing when I was in my 20s, when I was in like my early 30s. And then when I got to that senior level, I started, you know, my friends were having conversations around this and it was really interesting because I thought if I could go back and tell my younger self that this is a real thing that is potentially going to stop your growth or stop you from climbing the corporate ladder, where could you be investing your time better rather than getting to a certain point and it being like checkmate, like you can't elevate anymore. So I'd love to know your experience with working with women.
Do you see this getting stronger, getting weaker? Like, where, where do you see this and how can we.
I. I definitely think it's, you know, women supporting women and helping them like you do, like getting. Being empowered. But what, what's your thoughts around it and how do we recreate a different narrative?
[00:35:55] Speaker B: I think it's interesting and I want to share an example or a story. When I was, I want to say I was like a me. I was a middle, middle range type role, right? I was a human resources, like senior business partner. O. Maybe I was on like, I don't know, 100k or something. And I was a very lean team that I was a part of. And my director was a male and he was on, I want to say, three times more than what I was on and he, when I first came into the role, he said, okay, this is your client group. That's the group you need to partner with. One of your key roles is to build a really strong relationship with this director, this male director. He is. So he doesn't have a good relationship with hr. He goes off and does all these wrong, all these, these things we need to really mean. You need to build a trust based relationship with him. That's like the main thing. Okay. Nothing I haven't done before.
I ended up building an organic, authentic relationship with this director where he then came to me and sought my, sought HR's advice. But sort my advice as his business partner. We had such a good relationship, like without going into detail. Nailed, nailed that task, nailed that job. Job, right.
The director was so threatened of that because he didn't have a good relationship with him. He would make comments and say things like, because it was mainly a male dominated team, he would make comments and say things like, oh, still, of course she's like luring them all in and you know, is, is it because she's gorgeous or something like that and trying to be saying those comments in front of other people. And that is a small thing, but that is a very big thing. And so it's things like that that I think.
And so what happens, people around, other women around who heard it swallowed their tongues like they were like, oh. And no one said anything. And it's these types of things when you don't say, when you don't speak up, that is when that type of behavior is allowed, even if other people feel that it's not, it's not right, it's not correct, it's not fair. And that was a really important lesson for me because he was someone I really look up, looked up to. I put a lot, a lot of effort into actually kind of nailing that brief, if you know what I mean. And he turned around and did that. And I just thought, okay, this is really interesting because it's not equal path here. And so what I have to do is I've got to put double the amount of effort. This is what I have to tell my clients because I believe it's just the truth. Double amount of effort into my personal power, into my confidence, into my ability to express myself.
And in a way that is not necessarily completely emotional, but in a way that does encapsulate emotion, but encapsulates, I don't want to say elegance, but commands respect.
And I think it's that powerful blend where we don't need to neglect the feminine completely. There's parts of that that we need to bring it into, but in order to communicate to that masculine at that level, it does need to.
[00:39:09] Speaker A: To.
[00:39:09] Speaker B: You need to command that respect.
That's what I believe. And I believe that women focusing on their ability to communicate themselves in a powerful way and standing up for each other, even if that might make them feel like then they're gonna have a bad relationship with that male director, but it's the right thing to do. And so that is what I believe is true sisterhood. Not just when it feels easy for us to support each other, but when it feels hard.
[00:39:42] Speaker A: Yes. And it's coming back to that integrity. Standing in your integrity and.
Yeah, yeah. Calling out that behavior when it's. When it's not appropriate. Yeah. And it's just. It's just really interesting that that still exists, still happens.
[00:40:02] Speaker B: Yes. And. And some people don't. Like. I've had a few conversations actually, with some people quite close to haven't really. Maybe they haven't witnessed it or they haven't opened their eyes to it. And they kind of. Their response is very much like, not sure if that's actually true. Not sure if that actually. And I was like, no, no, you have to open your eyes.
[00:40:24] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:40:24] Speaker B: And you have to be in the room. And you have to say also the. I want to say, like, the indirect ways that it happens, because what. Obviously what that director said, that was quite direct. But there's other things which can be much more indirect. And so I think even more if. If women are listening to this, that want to continue on that corporate path, it is so important for them to focus their energy into their personal power, into their expression, into supporting each other and building that confidence within themselves.
[00:40:56] Speaker A: Yes. And I feel that that's what your work does as well. So even if, you know, a listener isn't ready to leave their corporate role, but just ways that they can be supported in their power, building their confidence. Because these rooms, like you say, you have to be double. Like, it's just. You just have to.
[00:41:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:18] Speaker A: Like that. That volume is like, it needs to be turned up on your output, on everything. And so what I would have really loved when I was in that corporate role is that support of. Yeah. Like someone that is, you know, like, basically building you up or, like, giving you the tools and like, being able to validate your experience.
[00:41:40] Speaker B: Right.
[00:41:41] Speaker A: And give that support. Because a lot of women are not talking about it. Like, in my corporate experience, I was the only senior woman, so I. I Had no one else to. Yeah. Really get input or feedback on or. Yeah. Really get that.
[00:41:56] Speaker B: Yeah. And sometimes it's. Sometimes it can be as powerful and illuminating as someone just looking at you and being like, no, that's not right. That's not you. That's not you. And I remember someone said that to me quite early on in my journey. And it was a male, actually, my. One of my friend's dads, actually. And he said to me, he's like, estelle, that is on him. You did nothing wrong here. And those reminders are so powerful and can be so life changing because it just opens up this whole lens, especially in your early. Your career, when you're just like, okay, that is not me. Like, lift the veil. I can see what's going on here. And you double down on your power. And I think that's what's one of the most.
One of the most important things you can do.
[00:42:40] Speaker A: What would you say to a woman that is in corporate right now and she knows that she wants to leave, she is starting to get those pulls.
So she's starting to feel that way that you felt like not. Not being aligned anymore, searching for something different.
What would you say are more of like the hidden aspects of staying in that corporate job for too long? You know, when you know that you should go, but you stay, and then it's been like another two years.
[00:43:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:22] Speaker A: What would you say is more of the hidden fear of not taking that leap and not taking that leap of faith on yourself and that trust?
[00:43:32] Speaker B: I would say fear of failure.
Definitely this fear of failure, especially if you've been building up something on the side, you get real, that becomes your identity, then, okay, I've got my corporate job, but I've got this side business. And then all of a sudden that becomes your new identity. And so it's about, how can you start to shift and change and mold your identity to be. No, no. Now I'm someone that runs my own business, or I've got a portfolio career or I've got a consulting service or an agency or whatever it is. Starting to shift your identity in that space I want to say is so, so powerful before making the decision. But also just recognizing and being really real with yourself and looking at yourself and being like, is, what am I actually afraid of? If I quit my job, what am I. What am I actually afraid of? And this is where I like to do a really logical kind of practice with my clients when it comes to fear. And I say, okay, if you, if you take the step you quit your job. What's the worst thing that can happen?
What's the worst thing happen? And often they say, well, I can't afford it, I don't get enough clients, I can't pay my bills. And so then what happens? What would you do then? Okay, so I'll probably have to go get another job. Okay, cool. So the worst thing can happen is that you're actually in the same spot that you are in now.
Why not actually give it a go if you've been setting yourself up for that, right? If you know in your heart that it's time and that it's just the fear.
But that exercise I think is a really powerful reminder that often it's, it's, there's a lot less at stake than we think and that we get to learn. Even if you did fail, right? Which I don't even like to even think that, but even if like you did, if that was the thing that you, you learn, right? You learn. And so many times even like in my HR career I would see women that would have a consulting business and then maybe they didn't fail it, but maybe they decided they want to come back into corporate. That's really valuable. That's really valuable. They've got entrepreneur entrepreneurship skills, they're probably fast moving, they can network, they can build relationships with people. So many incredible skills from that experience alone. So for me, I just want to say, I just want to remind my clients that if it is the right time and you know in your gut and you know that it's fear, then look at it from a really practical lens and just look at it and from a perspective of what do I actually have to lose? Because I would rather take the step and if I fail, end up where I back where I am right now as opposed to never giving it a shot. And often more often than not, they actually don't fail more often than not. That's actually less the case. But if that's the thing that's driving your fear, I think it's very important to get, get really grounded and real with it. And the other thing I would say is perfectionism is thinking that we have to have everything lined up and this is probably even. Yeah, they, they're kind of complementary of each other. But the perfectionism piece around, I have to have the most solid business plan. I have to already been making my corporate job by full time wages. In my corporate job, I have to have all of these, maybe like all the next clients for a year. Like the crazy things you'll hear so much pressure. So much pressure.
[00:46:40] Speaker A: Y.
[00:46:40] Speaker B: And it's like, what's the secondary gain of that? The secondary gain that you're getting from that is that you're never going to take the leap because you know that that's really hard to achieve, and you don't need those 500 things to happen in order for you to take the leap.
[00:46:55] Speaker A: And in my experience, like, I wanted to leave my corporate career maybe about five years ago, and then last year in March, I made a mental note, mental date, like you did. And I, you know, didn't share that, but that's what was on my mind, and I just still couldn't do it. But I got to a point where I got so out. It was out of my integrity that I needed to leave. But, you know, if you don't, like. I always, like, believe in divine timing and guidance and all of those things, but, you know, you can get to a point where you get pushed to make the decision.
[00:47:47] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:47:47] Speaker A: You know what I mean?
[00:47:48] Speaker B: 100.
[00:47:48] Speaker A: And I would have loved to have, in hindsight now, I would have loved to have, like, really, like, listened to my intuition and been like, I'm not going to wait till the circumstances, you know, get like a. You get the feather and then you get the brick, and then it's like.
[00:48:06] Speaker B: The whole wall falls on you 100%. And, you know, and that's the thing. I think I know what you're saying, because I also reflect on my journey, and I think that if I was at a job that I loved more, if I was at a cooler company, like the last job, if it was really cool, if it was really dynamic, if there were all these cool projects, maybe I would have convinced myself to stay. Maybe. Probably not, but maybe so. I sometimes think that the universe has a plan for us in terms of the timing. And you'll know that there is a reason. Maybe in hindsight, maybe later on, maybe in a year or two, you'll. You'll be able to piece the. Put the pieces together and say there was a reason why you. That needed to happen the way that it did.
[00:48:47] Speaker A: Yes. Yes.
[00:48:48] Speaker B: And everyone's journey is different. And, you know, I. Similarly to you, I wanted to quit, like, five years before, and I thought, yeah, I'm definitely gonna do it. And I'm. And I'm actually very glad that I didn't. I'm glad that I didn't. So I think what's important for people to know is that that differentiation where it's really helpful to work with someone to help Unpack this to be like, is this my, is this the right time or is it my fear talking, you know, and, and trying to, and like what I said before, trying to take it off the pedestal so much.
[00:49:22] Speaker A: Yes, I would love to ask then, do you, and in your experience, do you believe that entrepreneurship is the best way to fully claim. Reclaim your power, your personal power? Do you feel that that is, is the path to really reclaiming that?
[00:49:47] Speaker B: I think yes and no. So I think that entrepreneurship doesn't suit everyone and I think entrepreneurship is a word that maybe is used as more of an umbrella term these days because you can be someone who has a portfolio career and that might be designed in a way where that's less entrepreneurial. Like you might have a number of different part time gigs, you might do some contract work here, you might have, you know, do some coaching here, for example, but it's very kind of just like one to one or it's not necessarily entrepreneurial, let's say. And that might be a perfectly beautiful designed career for your life and your interests and what you want to create. Or you might have someone here who is doing, let's say like for example, a coaching business or a service based business, let's say, and it's much more entrepreneurial, what they want to create, the different avenues, the way that they're sharing their message, how they want to share their message. So I feel like, I think there's different layers and I think that the really cool thing is these days there's so many more options. Like you can draw on your corporate career and you can still do some consulting on the side, which I think is a really powerful way for people to transition into having their own business. You might do some consulting work, you might do some contracting work and then also you might have your clients and then you might start to reduce that contracting work if you don't want to do it and then build up your client base. So there's so many different ways. But I think the really cool, a really cool kind of framework to look at this is to consider your, your, your passions and to look at, okay, like what are you actually really passionate about? What do you love to do? Like what's your, what gives you that kind of, I don't know, like that je ne sais quoi kind of energy, you know, what is your thing? And then what is your experience?
What is the experience that you've had not and looking at your corporate job and really pulling it apart, but then also looking at like previous jobs, like I remember My telemarketing job that I had for two years when I was at uni, it taught me so much. Oh my God, I reckon more than lots of my corporate jobs. It taught me so much. It taught me about grit, it taught me how to handle rejection, it told me about building relationships with people and so many other things. And so I would add that to the list. Like the skills, what's your experience, what are your skills? And then what are the opportunities in the market? And so that kind of framework helps you kind of craft a bit of a path towards the way in which you want to grow your business or design a life that is around freedom and independence.
[00:52:26] Speaker A: I love that you're sort of crafting what it looks like for them on that individual basis, looking at all of those aspects and it's really just removing any of those very set paths.
[00:52:39] Speaker B: Like, yeah, I look this way.
[00:52:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Or I have to be like fully entrepreneurial or I can't do that contract work. I think that is really liberating and it helps more that transition as well if you're just wanting to start that way.
What I've noticed with a lot more of like entrepreneurship becoming more popular now and a lot more women taking these leaps, what are your thoughts around community building? Because, you know, when we're no longer in the office environment and we're not having that interaction, like I just feel that this is something that is really lacking. Like how have you been able to cultivate a community? Like masterminds or just having. Yeah, still having that connection I feel is really important. And I'm wondering how the landscape of entrepreneurship is going to happen because people are kind of like secluding themselves a little bit more now.
[00:53:42] Speaker B: Definitely. And I think this was something that I didn't realize, but it was actually a subconscious block for me because I'm such a people person. I love engaging with humans. There was a part of me where I was like, if I quit my job, I'm just going to be doing my thing by myself, like alone. What. Who am I going to talk to all day? Who am I going to engage with? I, I really, that was actually such a thing for me because I got a lot of energy from other people. And that's been something that I've been really intentional about because I know that when I am surrounded by other humans, it gives me vibrancy, vitality and life force. So for me, some smaller scale things and some bigger scale things I think people can do is definitely, like you said, you have to surround yourself and make the effort to build relationships with people as if, like, they're your colleagues. So there are people in the online world and I would say you are one of them. Where, like, I feel like, like we have each other's back and we're not even in a structured mastermind together or something. But I feel like the support that we show each other, that you need to kind of. You need to give that energy, bring it to people in order to attract it to yourself. But that's, for me, is like, oh, my God. They're like my people. They're like, cheering me on, they're like supporting me. They're my colleagues.
[00:54:57] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:54:58] Speaker B: You know, and also they can share those same challenges because I think what a lot of people find when they're transitioning out of corporate is their friends don't get it.
[00:55:08] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:55:08] Speaker B: And this was the same for me. No one around me was doing that. And so whilst I could share things with them, they didn't really get it. So having people around me getting it, whether that's online, whether that's building relationships with people going out and meeting. I went and had a random coffee with someone who is a career coach in Melbourne that we realized we were both from Melbourne, and I took the time out. Yes. There would have been, like, not as convenient for me to drive to this location, but I knew that meeting this person and engaging with humans in my space is really part of this. And so I think you have to go out of your way. You have to put in the effort to build relationships because they're not just in front of you and they're not just created in a structured environment where there's a new person coming on board and you've got to induct them. Everyone say, hello, let's take them out for lunch. I'm already so bored by that. But, you know.
[00:55:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:56] Speaker B: And so we have to. We have to be more. Take more initiative around that for ourselves and for each other, but also, like you said, masterminds, like, whatever spaces, circles. I know for me, I'm part of a few and I've create my own and that allows me to connect so deeply with other humans. Because otherwise, like you said, entrepreneurship can feel very lonely. And we don't want people to feel that because there's so much that gets lost in feeling alone.
[00:56:26] Speaker A: Yes. And you have definitely been that pillar support from me because I remember just when I left my corporate career, I remember you were one of the only people that checked in with me and just knew exactly what I'd been navigating because of that identity shift and others around you not really knowing what the hell you're doing.
It looks so. So out of, like, kilter.
[00:56:51] Speaker B: So.
[00:56:51] Speaker A: Yeah, that was so beautiful that. Yeah. You are able to create those conscious communities like you say, and really put the effort in. I noticed that you really do that.
If there was a woman listening now, is there anything else that you would like to tell her about taking a leap of faith or giving her. Investing in herself or giving her permission to.
Yeah. Reclaim her power? Is there anything that we haven't touched on today that is on. On your mind or what you've been having conversations with your clients with lately that you see as a block or something that has really helped them?
[00:57:42] Speaker B: Absolutely. One thing that comes to mind is I think that people believe it's a saturated market. I think people feel that their voice won't be heard. I think they compare themselves to other people. They think they need to sound like someone else. This person who's successful, that person who's successful. And I think the greatest gift you can give yourself is to. To really get in touch with who you are and your authenticity, your strengths, your self expression, your gifts, your magic. Why your unique, weird things that you do and own that about yourself. And I think that's one of the biggest things that comes that my clients go on a journey of. Because they think that they need to be this type of person in order to be successful. Because I see this person who's achieved success, they think they should just be a mirror of them. But like, exactly what you said before is like, when we walk down our path of alignment, we become more magnetic. So just like when we become more of who we're supposed to be, the most elevated version of our authentic selves, and we stop trying to sound like other people, we become so much more magnetic. And that's what I would say to someone who. Because I feel like that's something that a lot of people are internally kind of struggling with.
[00:58:55] Speaker A: Thank you. And just lastly, I always love to ask, what is your philosophy on aging, beauty? What is something empowering about your journey with. With beauty and aging and. Yeah, just your thoughts.
[00:59:14] Speaker B: Such a beautiful question. I love this. I think for me, I don't think the goal should be trying to look like who we were five years ago or 10 years ago. I think it's about how can we.
The most refined version of ourselves in this current season of life. And I think when we try and look back to who we used to be and trying to compare ourselves to that we lose all the magic and the wisdom that we've gained in our current cycle, in our current season. And I think beauty is.
It sounds cliche, but it's an inward journey, right? You know that the people that are most beautiful and are most magnetic are the ones that are themselves, are the ones that are walking their path, speaking their truth.
And I think, I think there's an opportunity when it comes to beauty is to also. What I will say is to. And this is something me and my mum often talk about because she's such an expander in this space. She looks incredible for her age, by the way. Like, it's getting awkward now. I'm like, mom, people are going to think we're like, what's going on here? Time for you to start aging. And what I will say is that I've. What I've always noticed is that like the, like this is my philosophy. It's just a number. It's just. It doesn't need to define us. Like, yes, of course our body's going to age. That's a natural process. But it doesn't need to define us. It doesn't need to put us in a box. One of my clients, she is in her 60s and she. She's one of my longest long term clients. She started working with me, I reckon early 60s, she was a widow. What she's been able to like achieve in the last few years, years in her 60s, is so empowering, is so beautiful. There is just no limits on what you can and cannot do. And I just think the, the age and like what we should be like at a certain age confines us so deeply and like we're similar to the corporate where it's like years and generations of perceptions around certain ages and what they mean. And I think the more we can step into a certain age season of life, life just being purely ourselves and not who people tell us we need to be at that age. The more beautiful we become, the more radiant we become, the more magnetic we become.
[01:01:29] Speaker A: I love that. Thank you so much, Estelle. It's been absolutely divine having you in front of me and I just adore you. So thank you for your wisdom and I'm going to leave in the show notes the ways you can contact Estelle and also your current offerings.
[01:01:47] Speaker B: Beautiful. Thank you so much for having me. This has been the best.
[01:01:50] Speaker A: Thanks for tuning into starbeing. May the wisdom shared resonate in your soul. Until next time, stay connected and keep reaching for the stars. This is starbeing signing off.
